WEBVTT NOTE Podcast: Bretterwisser Episode: Matt Leacock Publishing Date: 2015-09-17T19:34:11+01:00 Podcast URL: https://bretterwisser.de Episode URL: https://bretterwisser.de/bws016-matt-leacock/ 00:00:10.300 --> 00:00:13.760 Guten Morgen! Hier sind wir wieder mit einem Bretterwässer-Spezial. 00:00:14.450 --> 00:00:17.820 Ich habe jetzt zwar noch kurz in Deutsch geredet, aber wir werden jetzt gleich mal umspringen auf Englisch, 00:00:18.240 --> 00:00:20.240 weil wir haben nämlich einen speziellen Gast dabei. 00:00:21.240 --> 00:00:24.380 Und der Arne wird jetzt gleich mal unseren Gast auffordern, sich vorzustellen. 00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:31.100 Yeah, we have a special guest here with one of the hottest designers in board gaming. 00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:35.180 We have here Matt Leacock. Please introduce yourself. 00:00:36.380 --> 00:00:38.440 Well, hi, I'm Matt Leacock. I'm a game designer. 00:00:38.730 --> 00:00:44.580 I work out of California and specialize in family games, I guess you could say. 00:00:44.690 --> 00:00:46.000 And I'm known for Pandemic. 00:00:48.920 --> 00:00:53.880 What was your inspiration for Pandemic to create such a game? 00:00:54.800 --> 00:01:01.540 Well, you know, I played Reiner Knitia's Lord of the Rings. I think this is back in 2000 or so, 00:01:01.800 --> 00:01:05.339 and enjoyed it quite a bit. I didn't think a cooperative game could actually be fun, 00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:11.280 and our family really enjoyed that one. It was very tense. I was surprised how 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:18.119 tense a game could be. A cooperative game at that was just paper. You know, we're really drawn into 00:01:18.140 --> 00:01:24.660 it. And I wanted to try designing something like that myself. So I just started experimenting. And 00:01:24.870 --> 00:01:31.300 I think pandemics were very much in the news and still are, of course. And so I think that 00:01:31.610 --> 00:01:37.900 that was bouncing around in my brain as a really great enemy that everybody could get behind, 00:01:38.600 --> 00:01:46.300 that nobody really identifies with the disease so much. They make a good enemy. 00:01:46.780 --> 00:01:51.460 So I just started combining those ideas and the pandemic came out. 00:01:54.240 --> 00:01:54.900 Sounds so easy. 00:01:57.420 --> 00:02:01.460 I actually took a walk with my daughter and had a lot of ideas for mechanisms. 00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:06.180 Some of them were based on, say, Web of Power. 00:02:06.230 --> 00:02:12.020 I wanted to do a card game, have a card element where cards could be used for multiple things. 00:02:12.130 --> 00:02:13.580 And I wanted there to be chain reactions. 00:02:14.300 --> 00:02:17.760 And I sat down and just started experimenting with the deck of cards 00:02:18.100 --> 00:02:22.880 and found the mechanism where you reshuffled the discard pile 00:02:22.900 --> 00:02:25.360 and put it back on top of the draw pile actually very quickly. 00:02:26.020 --> 00:02:27.380 And that kind of hooked me in. 00:02:27.640 --> 00:02:32.720 And so I just kept going with it until three years later I had a final product. 00:02:34.340 --> 00:02:35.120 Three years? 00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:37.700 Have you ever thought that it would be such a hit? 00:02:38.620 --> 00:02:39.480 Oh, no, no, no. 00:02:40.260 --> 00:02:40.680 Absolutely not. 00:02:42.280 --> 00:02:44.180 This is my first game that I got published. 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:46.860 So my expectations were very modest. 00:02:47.030 --> 00:02:50.400 I was just happy to get a game published at the time 00:02:50.950 --> 00:02:53.080 because I've been working on trying to get a game 00:02:54.620 --> 00:02:56.840 out into the market for many years. 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:00.240 And I just spent a lot of time iterating on Pandemic 00:03:00.500 --> 00:03:01.720 and making it better and better. 00:03:02.230 --> 00:03:05.180 But I thought maybe we would sell 5,000 copies 00:03:05.550 --> 00:03:07.920 and maybe if I was lucky, we'd get a second printing. 00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:12.300 You're right above that, I would say. 00:03:12.900 --> 00:03:18.460 Yeah, it's been fun to watch the success of the game, but it was completely unexpected. 00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:23.180 You also designed Forbidden Island. 00:03:23.880 --> 00:03:25.280 Is it called Forbidden Island in English? 00:03:25.980 --> 00:03:27.900 They changed the names in German a bit. 00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:28.640 That's right. 00:03:28.660 --> 00:03:30.080 Yeah, it is Forbidden Island in English. 00:03:30.260 --> 00:03:30.560 Yeah. 00:03:30.980 --> 00:03:31.700 Was it after? 00:03:32.380 --> 00:03:36.540 Did you design Forbidden Island after pandemic or was it? 00:03:37.140 --> 00:03:42.460 I mean, everybody says it's a simpler version of pandemic, but I don't see this. 00:03:44.920 --> 00:03:50.860 did you design this for families more in mind because yeah a lot of people say say it's easier 00:03:50.890 --> 00:03:57.960 for kids to get into this game than into pandemic yeah that was very very deliberate so i was 00:03:58.220 --> 00:04:03.080 contacted by a company called game right um in the states and they wanted to do a cooperative 00:04:03.440 --> 00:04:09.079 kids game uh they do a lot of uh cooperative or not cooperative they do a lot of card games 00:04:09.200 --> 00:04:15.780 for kids and wanted to see if I could come up with a cooperative game that would appeal to 00:04:16.359 --> 00:04:22.360 who they sell to. So originally the game was a card game and I tried to bottle up some of the 00:04:22.820 --> 00:04:28.540 fun of Pandemic in a simple card game. And so the board was made out of cards, but it's difficult 00:04:28.860 --> 00:04:34.279 to flip cards over. You have to use your fingernails and you hack up the cards. And so eventually the 00:04:34.300 --> 00:04:39.360 cards turned into tiles. But that was the challenge, was to come up with something that 00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:46.540 would play faster, would be easier, the theme would be more appealing to younger kids. And 00:04:46.660 --> 00:04:47.800 that's where Forbidden Island came from. 00:04:48.200 --> 00:04:51.280 With an evil island as a faceless enemy. 00:04:53.020 --> 00:04:59.879 I played the game with my daughter. I think she was six or seven at the time. And I think 00:05:00.300 --> 00:05:01.840 at one point when she was testing 00:05:02.420 --> 00:05:03.760 the tile underneath her pawn 00:05:04.080 --> 00:05:06.000 disappeared and I told her she drowned 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:07.540 and she just burst into tears. 00:05:07.660 --> 00:05:09.980 She was so horrified by the 00:05:10.320 --> 00:05:12.180 concept that I knew she was, at least 00:05:12.200 --> 00:05:14.220 if nothing else, she was engaged in the game 00:05:14.520 --> 00:05:15.180 and drawn into it. 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:17.960 But you're also designing 00:05:18.260 --> 00:05:19.500 not only cooperative games, 00:05:19.980 --> 00:05:22.120 you're also designing a lot of dice games. 00:05:23.660 --> 00:05:24.460 Yeah, I like 00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:26.300 dice games. I did 00:05:26.380 --> 00:05:28.040 roll through the ages, the Bronze Age, 00:05:28.340 --> 00:05:29.280 the year after pandemic. 00:05:29.940 --> 00:05:32.200 and that game came together fairly quickly. 00:05:32.320 --> 00:05:34.580 It was a, I did a little challenge with my friends 00:05:34.780 --> 00:05:36.240 to try to come up with a game in a month. 00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:39.640 And so the seeds are the beginnings of that game 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:41.200 were put together in that month. 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:43.560 And the game, I think, you know, 00:05:43.640 --> 00:05:45.660 rather than taking three years, only took six months. 00:05:46.060 --> 00:05:47.440 So I enjoyed that quite a bit. 00:05:48.540 --> 00:05:49.860 But, you know, those are just the games 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:50.900 that I've done so far. 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:52.640 I've done a bunch of cooperative games. 00:05:52.740 --> 00:05:55.440 I like dice games and I'm working on 00:05:55.440 --> 00:05:57.240 some other types of games as well. 00:05:58.260 --> 00:06:00.900 So we can expect something that is not cooperative. 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:03.300 Yes, that's true. 00:06:03.490 --> 00:06:07.220 You should keep your eyes open over the next year. 00:06:08.320 --> 00:06:08.640 Cool. 00:06:10.280 --> 00:06:13.140 Okay, now to the actual game. 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:16.920 You joined the team with Rob. 00:06:17.880 --> 00:06:18.680 How did you meet Rob? 00:06:19.940 --> 00:06:20.360 Let's see. 00:06:20.470 --> 00:06:21.780 So I met Rob. 00:06:21.890 --> 00:06:25.480 I was introduced to Rob via Z-Man Games. 00:06:25.980 --> 00:06:27.620 They had done some work with him in the past. 00:06:28.460 --> 00:06:33.540 and we had talked about different things in different directions we could take pandemic and 00:06:34.410 --> 00:06:40.680 uh we you know you shoot a lot of ideas around um we talked about doing uh pandemic the dice game 00:06:41.100 --> 00:06:46.760 which we ultimately did which is the the cure uh you know maybe doing a card game or maybe we could 00:06:46.760 --> 00:06:53.359 do a legacy game that sort of thing we bounced a lot of ideas around and one day the legacy idea 00:06:53.880 --> 00:07:00.140 really took hold of my brain and I started writing down many, many notes. 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:03.660 And then I started to get really excited about it. 00:07:03.660 --> 00:07:08.720 And I contacted Zman and said, you know, I'd like to work with Rob on this. 00:07:08.920 --> 00:07:10.900 And so they put me in touch with him. 00:07:12.580 --> 00:07:15.060 And he wrote back a very, very short email. 00:07:15.280 --> 00:07:17.380 And I asked him if he wanted to work on something like this. 00:07:17.440 --> 00:07:20.180 And I think it just said yes, a very, very large type. 00:07:21.780 --> 00:07:26.060 Was it your first working on a game with two people? 00:07:27.300 --> 00:07:27.840 No, no. 00:07:28.620 --> 00:07:34.340 I've done the pandemic expansions with Tom Lehman, both on the brink and in the lab. 00:07:35.080 --> 00:07:37.820 And I've developed games with a lot of different people. 00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:40.380 So it's hard to do in isolation. 00:07:40.740 --> 00:07:43.500 I like to work along with the developer. 00:07:43.820 --> 00:07:48.940 I've done games by myself, but you end up testing them with a tremendous number of people. 00:07:49.640 --> 00:07:52.380 So they never feel like solitaire affairs. 00:07:57.820 --> 00:07:58.040 Wow. 00:07:58.470 --> 00:08:03.540 I mean, so you had this idea in your head and then you said, Rob, let's do it. 00:08:05.139 --> 00:08:06.960 How was his reaction to that? 00:08:07.980 --> 00:08:09.460 Yeah, he was really excited about the idea. 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:14.000 He has been working on Seafall. 00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:24.360 I think one thing that's nice about working on a legacy game for an existing game is you don't have to come up with both the base game and the way the legacy system works at the same time. 00:08:26.380 --> 00:08:34.640 But I think we both thought that Pandemic would be a good fit for a legacy treatment because it lends itself to story. 00:08:34.870 --> 00:08:40.860 And we both thought that adding a story to Pandemic would really make it even more exciting. 00:08:41.760 --> 00:08:46.720 And so I think we spent about a year to a year and a half developing the game together. 00:08:47.900 --> 00:08:49.820 He's on the East Coast and I'm on the West Coast. 00:08:49.850 --> 00:08:55.800 So we did a lot of meetings over using the internet. 00:08:56.220 --> 00:08:59.740 And he came out to California a couple of times and we had some working sessions. 00:09:00.210 --> 00:09:00.980 But it was really fun. 00:09:01.500 --> 00:09:02.960 Rob's very good at story. 00:09:04.820 --> 00:09:08.560 And I pride myself on making things accessible and easy to learn. 00:09:08.680 --> 00:09:13.200 And so we combined our skills in that regard. 00:09:13.350 --> 00:09:15.480 And I think we came up with a pretty fun product. 00:09:18.220 --> 00:09:25.640 One of the things that we did differently on this project in particular was we did a lot of user testing. 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:32.060 There's many, many games in the box, and they're all played one after another. 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:37.140 And in order to make sure that the game held up, we needed to do lots of play testing. 00:09:37.180 --> 00:09:47.180 And we really wanted to see people's reactions and understand how they would play the game and how it would, you know, basically really wanted to watch a lot of people. 00:09:47.300 --> 00:09:51.200 But it's difficult when the play sessions are so long. 00:09:51.960 --> 00:09:56.760 So there are a few people who already know the progression arc of the game? 00:09:57.640 --> 00:10:01.280 Yeah, there are some people that have played the game other than Rob and I. 00:10:02.620 --> 00:10:05.620 And we actually asked them to videotape themselves using their camera phones. 00:10:06.500 --> 00:10:11.700 So Rob and I, I think we watched between 100 and 200 hours of video 00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:16.580 and transcribed notes and observations and ideas from that video. 00:10:16.880 --> 00:10:18.960 So that's a method I really like to do, 00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:22.380 and we really did a tremendous amount of it for this game. 00:10:22.740 --> 00:10:24.040 Did they sign an NDA? 00:10:24.740 --> 00:10:25.540 They did, yes. 00:10:26.340 --> 00:10:26.640 Okay. 00:10:27.500 --> 00:10:28.260 Yeah, nice job. 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:28.640 Interesting. 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:38.920 How would you compare working on such a game with working on other, let's call them regular titles? 00:10:40.160 --> 00:10:46.620 What was the biggest challenge besides the extreme amount of time you need to put into it? 00:10:48.580 --> 00:10:50.880 Well, it's like working on a very intricate watch. 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:56.160 I mean, there's a lot of different moving pieces and all the pieces affect each other. 00:10:56.580 --> 00:11:04.720 And so you need to figure out, you can't have the game crashing halfway through the season, as it were. 00:11:05.500 --> 00:11:12.960 So there's a lot of testing and it's kind of like, so there's the scale of it. 00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:21.900 It's a longer and bigger project, but it also lends itself to story much more. 00:11:21.920 --> 00:11:24.180 You can unfold things over time. 00:11:24.280 --> 00:11:41.020 So it's a little bit like designing a, I think, I've never done this myself, but I think it would be a lot like designing a computer game with an unfolding narrative where the players gradually learn more and more and they gradually get more and more skills as they go on. 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:44.080 You don't have to introduce everything at the beginning of the game, which is nice. 00:11:44.380 --> 00:11:48.500 Often when you open up a box, the worst thing about it is you've got all these rules you have to learn. 00:11:49.220 --> 00:11:54.560 Well, with a legacy game, you can learn a little bit and then play and then learn a little bit more and then play some more. 00:11:54.730 --> 00:11:58.440 And so you gradually achieve mastery in a nice pace. 00:11:58.910 --> 00:12:00.020 So that's a lot of fun. 00:12:00.940 --> 00:12:13.980 Plus, the other thing, I can see one more thing in there about the thing that makes it different is it's fun to watch players because every time they're opening up a package within the game, it's kind of like, it's just like Christmas morning. 00:12:14.220 --> 00:12:17.220 You know, they've got some new goody to take a look at. 00:12:17.560 --> 00:12:22.140 Yeah, I watched the little promo video of Asmodel last night, 00:12:22.250 --> 00:12:25.240 and they showed the box for, I think, the first time in a video. 00:12:25.330 --> 00:12:28.780 And I thought of my feelings when I played Risk Legacy, 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:34.660 and when I ripped open the boxes and the little envelopes, 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:39.620 and I'm excited for this feeling again later this year. 00:12:41.060 --> 00:12:43.360 Yeah, I loved Advent Caledars as a kid, 00:12:43.620 --> 00:12:46.400 and I think the game kind of captures some of that fun. 00:12:48.700 --> 00:12:49.620 that sounds great 00:12:55.839 --> 00:12:57.700 so you have this box 00:12:58.510 --> 00:12:59.900 there is only one legacy game 00:13:00.130 --> 00:13:01.200 on the market now 00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:04.380 but Pandemic is the second one 00:13:04.680 --> 00:13:06.040 and it says on the box 00:13:06.110 --> 00:13:07.780 in big letters season one 00:13:09.019 --> 00:13:10.680 I think everybody now expects 00:13:10.860 --> 00:13:12.120 that there will be a season two 00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:13.340 maybe already next year 00:13:13.860 --> 00:13:15.800 is that something you're really planning to do 00:13:15.800 --> 00:13:17.160 or is it just a marketing gig? 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:19.600 Well, I don't... 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:22.140 Well, I think it's reasonable to assume 00:13:22.340 --> 00:13:23.200 that there'll be other seasons. 00:13:23.540 --> 00:13:25.620 I don't think anything has been announced yet, 00:13:25.700 --> 00:13:27.660 so I don't want to set expectations for timing 00:13:27.780 --> 00:13:28.520 or anything like that. 00:13:28.580 --> 00:13:33.220 But I can say that we're hard at work on the game. 00:13:33.680 --> 00:13:39.220 And so, yeah, I think it's reasonable to assume 00:13:39.220 --> 00:13:40.780 that there will be additional seasons. 00:13:41.280 --> 00:13:41.880 How does that sound? 00:13:43.040 --> 00:13:44.140 That sounds awesome. 00:13:45.260 --> 00:13:45.940 okay 00:13:49.780 --> 00:13:56.580 yeah i have a question about about the difficulty because i have the the um everybody says says 00:13:56.610 --> 00:14:01.420 that i like the the easier games how would you compare the the difficulty of the 00:14:02.260 --> 00:14:10.640 beginning of risk legacy uh sorry pandemic legacy oh no worries i do the same thing um i uh well i 00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:14.860 guess you could say that when you're designing a game like this you need to make sure that the 00:14:15.060 --> 00:14:20.280 difficulty scales to the audience so we built in some i guess you'd call them negative feedback 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:26.160 loops to make sure that the game doesn't get too difficult or too easy so it'll adapt in a certain 00:14:26.340 --> 00:14:35.099 sense to its um to the players who are playing it and then it probably ramps up if you make bad 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:35.300 choices. 00:14:37.450 --> 00:14:38.780 Well, I won't describe these specific 00:14:38.920 --> 00:14:40.880 mechanisms. I'll let you discover those 00:14:40.890 --> 00:14:41.280 for yourself. 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:50.640 Have you thought about 00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:52.960 additional components? 00:14:54.940 --> 00:14:55.540 I mean, 00:14:56.940 --> 00:14:58.860 you're talking about some of these nice 00:14:59.060 --> 00:14:59.600 promo stuff. 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:02.940 I remember when Lyrist Legacy 00:15:02.940 --> 00:15:04.520 came out there was a promo 00:15:04.940 --> 00:15:06.400 pack which was not 00:15:06.860 --> 00:15:08.340 regularly available in the box but 00:15:08.680 --> 00:15:10.420 as something you got at a show 00:15:11.020 --> 00:15:12.620 is that something that's also 00:15:12.820 --> 00:15:13.300 planned for 00:15:14.940 --> 00:15:15.540 pandemic legacy? 00:15:17.660 --> 00:15:18.340 Can we make this 00:15:19.340 --> 00:15:20.000 all the time? 00:15:20.680 --> 00:15:22.180 I'm not sure what the next year will 00:15:22.920 --> 00:15:24.780 hold. I don't have any current plans 00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:26.980 for anything that's going to add on to it. 00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:28.600 There's so much already in the box 00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:30.320 and we're 00:15:30.660 --> 00:15:32.920 as I mentioned we're 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:37.420 you know, continuing to think about the line. But yeah, I'm not sure. 00:15:37.990 --> 00:15:40.520 Z-Man may have some ideas and Rob and I may have some ideas. 00:15:40.700 --> 00:15:43.680 So I wouldn't rule anything out, but I can't say anything's planned right now. 00:15:44.900 --> 00:15:47.680 Did everything fit in the box that you had on ideas? 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:51.420 This game was a logistical nightmare to put together. 00:15:51.820 --> 00:15:57.640 It's one of the most complicated board games that our printers ever put together, 00:15:57.710 --> 00:16:02.480 if not the most complicated. So it's, yeah, it does fit in the box. 00:16:02.940 --> 00:16:04.860 so when you buy it 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:05.580 everything will be in there 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:09.560 we had more than 00:16:09.880 --> 00:16:11.040 we had a lot of ideas 00:16:11.520 --> 00:16:12.940 that didn't get in the box 00:16:13.340 --> 00:16:14.700 you generate tons of ideas 00:16:14.940 --> 00:16:16.920 you pick the ones that are best 00:16:17.480 --> 00:16:18.520 suited to the game you're making 00:16:19.560 --> 00:16:20.780 so some ideas 00:16:20.900 --> 00:16:22.800 same thing was true with Pandemic 00:16:22.810 --> 00:16:24.160 and the Pandemic expansions 00:16:25.140 --> 00:16:27.220 there were ideas that I had for the base game of Pandemic 00:16:27.500 --> 00:16:29.340 that finally got into the game 00:16:29.420 --> 00:16:30.559 in the third expansion 00:16:30.560 --> 00:16:33.940 when it made sense to include them. 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:39.000 The idea of quarantines were originally in the base game. 00:16:39.540 --> 00:16:43.240 So it's fun to see how ideas never really go away. 00:16:43.300 --> 00:16:44.940 You can breathe new life in them. 00:16:46.220 --> 00:16:51.480 So yeah, we had plenty of ideas that made it in 00:16:51.640 --> 00:16:54.040 and others that got deferred. 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:02.680 So we can still expect more stuff for regular Pandemic? 00:17:05.300 --> 00:17:08.020 I think you should... 00:17:08.020 --> 00:17:11.579 Well, it's a game line that I think we very much want to keep alive. 00:17:12.100 --> 00:17:16.680 So I'm not sure exactly if we'll have additional expansions for the base game 00:17:16.709 --> 00:17:21.439 or if we're going to continue to look at other standalone games. 00:17:21.490 --> 00:17:23.780 I mean, like Pandemic the Cure is a standalone game, 00:17:23.780 --> 00:17:25.319 but it's very much in the Pandemic universe. 00:17:27.780 --> 00:17:31.920 So, yeah, I think time will tell exactly what we roll out. 00:17:32.620 --> 00:17:38.960 But, yeah, I'm very interested in trying out all sorts of new things in the line. 00:17:39.840 --> 00:17:42.760 So, yeah, stay tuned. 00:17:44.740 --> 00:17:45.340 We are. 00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:50.800 René? 00:17:53.059 --> 00:17:54.900 René has some problems. 00:17:55.940 --> 00:18:01.680 Oh, in Risk Legacy, there was a secret envelope that you never had to open. 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:04.980 Can we find something similar? 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:08.080 Well, I guess I've got two answers to that. 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:10.120 One would be, you know, we'd never do the same thing twice. 00:18:10.500 --> 00:18:10.940 Ah, okay. 00:18:11.540 --> 00:18:12.060 Poor magic. 00:18:12.620 --> 00:18:13.960 And the other is I would never tell you. 00:18:15.580 --> 00:18:17.020 You're going to have to find out for yourself. 00:18:17.040 --> 00:18:18.780 So I have to rip everything apart. 00:18:20.940 --> 00:18:22.480 And then I have to buy the other box. 00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:23.100 Yeah. 00:18:23.600 --> 00:18:26.300 You have to get the red box, rip that apart, and then get the blue box. 00:18:26.600 --> 00:18:28.020 That's why there are two boxes, right? 00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:29.560 I should let people know that. 00:18:29.590 --> 00:18:33.040 Yeah, the only thing that's different between the red box and the blue box is the cover. 00:18:33.840 --> 00:18:39.560 So you can be fully confident that if you buy one or the other, you've got the same game. 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:45.420 Some people will express the desire to play with a couple of different groups, 00:18:45.470 --> 00:18:47.720 and that helps you keep them separate. 00:18:48.760 --> 00:18:57.620 Yeah, I was told from marketing that the idea is you play the box through and then you have a second clean new box you can still have on your shelf. 00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:01.500 But if I play with two different groups, I already need a third box to have a clean one. 00:19:01.800 --> 00:19:04.700 So is there a plan for a green and a yellow box as well? 00:19:06.080 --> 00:19:09.920 Well, yeah, do me a favor and write to Z-Man and say that you're really interested in that. 00:19:10.020 --> 00:19:10.400 That'd be great. 00:19:13.520 --> 00:19:15.140 And what about the colorblind people, right? 00:19:15.900 --> 00:19:17.160 Right, right. You can't do red and green. 00:19:20.320 --> 00:19:20.480 um 00:19:22.180 --> 00:19:22.900 um 00:19:24.660 --> 00:19:25.160 Matthias 00:19:25.800 --> 00:19:27.900 um one of the questions we already 00:19:28.180 --> 00:19:29.560 also have here is um 00:19:30.900 --> 00:19:31.580 there are 00:19:31.820 --> 00:19:33.640 a lot of games currently with some 00:19:33.980 --> 00:19:35.620 added digital components 00:19:36.500 --> 00:19:37.760 is there something like an 00:19:38.040 --> 00:19:39.720 app support plan for 00:19:40.020 --> 00:19:41.800 pandemic either legacy 00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:43.360 or any of the other games 00:19:44.100 --> 00:19:45.779 well you can get pandemic 00:19:45.800 --> 00:19:52.120 for iOS. That's out for iPad and iPhone. And they recently announced that they'll be supporting 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:59.520 Android. I think that's being released in September. Yeah. And I think that they have 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:05.660 more components of On the Brink queued up as well. So it's not just the base game, but you can already 00:20:05.820 --> 00:20:12.020 get the roles from On the Brink. And I think they've got additional, perhaps the challenges. 00:20:12.620 --> 00:20:17.980 I haven't seen that yet, but I believe that's queued up and announced. 00:20:18.820 --> 00:20:22.420 Have you thought about integrating an app into the game? 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:25.600 Like, for example, XCOM, the board game? 00:20:27.180 --> 00:20:28.680 Yeah, you know, I haven't yet. 00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:30.320 I mean, I've given it some thought. 00:20:30.570 --> 00:20:38.740 I think if I want to do something like that, it's got to be so important to the game that it's core to the game. 00:20:38.980 --> 00:20:44.600 I'm not really all that interested in doing add-ons just for the sake of an add-on. 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:54.260 Because I like being able to pull games off the shelf and just get going without having to break out any technology. 00:20:55.240 --> 00:21:00.860 Part of the reason I like to play board games is I can get away from the computer and tech. 00:21:01.060 --> 00:21:04.160 I live in Silicon Valley, and it's nice to break away. 00:21:04.600 --> 00:21:10.520 And the point for me is to socialize with people and see their faces and not once again be... 00:21:10.680 --> 00:21:12.940 I look at my phone all day. I don't need to look at it anymore. 00:21:15.620 --> 00:21:15.760 Okay. 00:21:17.580 --> 00:21:24.760 Okay. Can you tell us anything about Legacy besides some of the images we've seen yesterday on BoardGameGeek? 00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:34.200 And besides some of the infos we read in some marketing materials that gets us even more hooked than we already are? 00:21:34.280 --> 00:21:36.220 I'm trying to think what I can tell you 00:21:36.580 --> 00:21:38.440 I don't know if I have a scoop for you 00:21:38.800 --> 00:21:40.600 without getting in tremendous amount of trouble 00:21:42.179 --> 00:21:43.480 I think you've probably 00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:47.180 you probably know that it plays out over the course of a terrible year on earth 00:21:47.460 --> 00:21:49.560 and that each game is like a month 00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:52.300 and you play through a month 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:54.000 and if you win you move on to the next month 00:21:54.080 --> 00:21:57.720 and if you lose you get another chance to play the month before time moves on 00:22:00.860 --> 00:22:02.739 I'm trying to think what else can I tell you 00:22:06.580 --> 00:22:13.300 guess we have to wait yeah yeah i i hate waiting off of uh speaking points here i don't want to 00:22:13.300 --> 00:22:18.660 get in trouble yeah yeah it's gonna be uh it's gonna be exciting for me too because um i've seen 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:24.900 uh the set on video you know um over the internet but i've never i have not yet felt one of my 00:22:25.320 --> 00:22:29.359 one of the production samples in my hands yet so i'm gonna be seeing it the same day 00:22:29.560 --> 00:22:32.160 everyone else's in its final form. 00:22:32.460 --> 00:22:36.020 I had more in my hands than you did. 00:22:38.419 --> 00:22:40.640 Did you have a sample? 00:22:41.080 --> 00:22:43.640 I've seen a production sample in Nürnberg. 00:22:45.080 --> 00:22:45.880 Oh, very nice. 00:22:46.030 --> 00:22:47.200 Yeah, I have not seen that. 00:22:47.380 --> 00:22:50.000 I've got a printout of the box cover, 00:22:50.010 --> 00:22:51.720 and I've got a nice poster that they sent me, 00:22:51.750 --> 00:22:52.160 which is great. 00:22:52.500 --> 00:22:54.380 But yeah, I haven't seen the sample. 00:22:54.580 --> 00:22:58.499 Rob Daviau has driven up to Z-Man 00:22:58.520 --> 00:23:01.540 has thumbed through it all and done a lot of checking and proofing, 00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:03.860 but I haven't had the privilege yet. 00:23:03.980 --> 00:23:05.900 So I'm excited for Spiel. 00:23:07.580 --> 00:23:08.740 So you're in Essen then? 00:23:09.900 --> 00:23:11.340 Yeah, I go every year now. 00:23:11.600 --> 00:23:14.620 So I'll be there Thursday through Sunday. 00:23:17.540 --> 00:23:22.560 So are you afraid when the crowd gets the game? 00:23:22.820 --> 00:23:26.340 I mean, when you playtested the game with, I don't know, 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:29.320 a couple people, a few people, some people. 00:23:30.280 --> 00:23:34.300 And now thousands of people are going to play the game. 00:23:36.420 --> 00:23:37.720 Are you afraid of that? 00:23:40.300 --> 00:23:42.400 Afraid is maybe not the right word. 00:23:42.680 --> 00:23:45.380 I'm excited and maybe a little anxious. 00:23:46.800 --> 00:23:48.600 I'm really interested more than anything. 00:23:49.140 --> 00:23:50.600 I'd like to do more games like this, 00:23:50.660 --> 00:23:52.780 and I really want to see what the reception is. 00:23:54.220 --> 00:23:58.640 And I'm excited to see and interested to see how, you know, 00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:01.580 I didn't follow the message boards for Risk Legacy, 00:24:01.770 --> 00:24:06.220 so I'm not sure how people actually even talk about these kinds of games online. 00:24:06.570 --> 00:24:09.820 So we'll have to see how the community, yeah, I'm sure they do. 00:24:10.020 --> 00:24:14.200 I'm just curious how they protect each other from spoiling certain parts. 00:24:15.340 --> 00:24:17.240 So we'll see how that unfolds. 00:24:18.260 --> 00:24:20.620 But so, yeah, mostly just excited. 00:24:22.300 --> 00:24:28.380 But you're not afraid of quote unquote bugs that could appear? 00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:30.340 Oh, bugs? 00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:31.100 Yeah. 00:24:31.360 --> 00:24:33.100 Well, you know, yeah. 00:24:33.880 --> 00:24:36.980 I imagine that we'll probably find something. 00:24:37.420 --> 00:24:38.020 There's always something. 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:46.400 We found an extremely trivial thing, which I just had to laugh about it because I'm like, wow, that's all you found. 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:52.180 And the die cut of one of the stickers was a little funky, 00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:54.540 which had absolutely no impact on gameplay. 00:24:55.320 --> 00:24:57.720 But yeah, we'll see how it goes. 00:24:57.760 --> 00:24:59.120 So fingers crossed, knock on wood. 00:25:00.620 --> 00:25:04.860 We did extensive quality assurance on it, 00:25:05.980 --> 00:25:08.720 went through the whole package multiple times 00:25:08.820 --> 00:25:10.960 and did have multiple playtest groups go through it. 00:25:11.140 --> 00:25:14.620 But yeah, we'll see. 00:25:19.280 --> 00:25:20.220 do you plan to 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:22.500 find some publisher for 00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:23.880 next games 00:25:25.560 --> 00:25:26.520 in Essen 00:25:26.740 --> 00:25:28.340 or are you just happy with Z-Man 00:25:29.700 --> 00:25:30.580 and look forward 00:25:30.760 --> 00:25:32.540 to release more games 00:25:32.600 --> 00:25:32.980 with them 00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:36.620 the Spiel is a big event for me 00:25:36.620 --> 00:25:38.560 I mean there's so many things I like to do there 00:25:39.260 --> 00:25:40.260 I'll be there 00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:42.480 obviously for the 00:25:42.800 --> 00:25:44.620 launch of Pandemic Legacy which is a 00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:50.580 big deal. I'll be there for the world championship of the pandemic survival tournament. So the winner 00:25:50.660 --> 00:25:57.900 of that tournament will get to go anywhere in the world with their teammate, anywhere on the 00:25:58.120 --> 00:26:01.640 pandemic board for a week. And Z-Man is going to cover the bill. So that'll be kind of fun. 00:26:02.170 --> 00:26:08.440 I think there's like 22 countries represented. So that's the first ever pandemic survival 00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:14.040 tournament happening. I'll be there for the release of Thunderbirds, which is another game 00:26:14.060 --> 00:26:15.660 that I put out with Medifius. 00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:19.980 And that's coming out at the show. 00:26:20.550 --> 00:26:23.080 And then I've always got meetings set up 00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:24.080 with various publishers. 00:26:24.340 --> 00:26:25.920 So I've worked with about a half a dozen 00:26:26.010 --> 00:26:26.520 different publishers. 00:26:26.940 --> 00:26:27.860 I do want to say, though, 00:26:28.040 --> 00:26:30.780 that Zman has been just fantastic to work with. 00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:34.760 And they've got really great people there, 00:26:34.820 --> 00:26:36.260 and they've been wonderful partners. 00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:39.000 Great to hear. 00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:42.060 Okay. 00:26:43.480 --> 00:26:44.820 Any more questions from you guys? 00:26:45.540 --> 00:26:45.620 No. 00:26:47.760 --> 00:26:48.740 So we look forward. 00:26:49.300 --> 00:26:51.660 Do you think you have enough copies of the game in Essen? 00:26:52.760 --> 00:26:53.720 I don't know. 00:26:53.820 --> 00:26:54.440 I hope so. 00:26:55.700 --> 00:26:56.700 You might want to get one early. 00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:58.580 I don't know how many they're bringing to the show. 00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:02.800 I think it's one of the hottest games there, 00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:04.440 or most anticipated. 00:27:06.120 --> 00:27:06.460 Oh, yeah. 00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:08.620 Well, that's exciting to hear. 00:27:08.820 --> 00:27:09.780 I can't wait. 00:27:11.580 --> 00:27:18.040 I mean, the last number I heard was back in May when they announced they already had 50,000 pre-orders. 00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:25.180 I think they got 72,000 pre-orders was the last announcement I saw. 00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:30.980 So do you have an idea how many Pandemic games were sold? 00:27:31.820 --> 00:27:34.800 That hasn't been announced yet. That figure has not. 00:27:34.860 --> 00:27:39.040 I have an idea, but it has not been shared with the public yet. 00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:39.500 Okay. 00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:46.900 And I believe Pandemic Legacy will be coming out in 10 different languages as well, 00:27:47.030 --> 00:27:53.140 which is a pretty big deal to come out localized in that many languages at the same time. 00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:54.020 10 languages. 00:27:54.900 --> 00:27:55.040 Yeah. 00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:56.120 Can you name them all? 00:27:56.920 --> 00:27:57.160 No. 00:27:58.060 --> 00:27:59.860 I can't off the top of my head. 00:28:02.680 --> 00:28:06.300 German, Bavarian, Austrian. 00:28:06.450 --> 00:28:09.920 I would hesitate to name them because I would probably add one that wasn't in 00:28:09.940 --> 00:28:11.200 then forget one that there was. 00:28:14.120 --> 00:28:17.280 But I'm sure they'll be sharing that information at the booth. 00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:23.260 Okay, so we're really looking forward for that release. 00:28:24.280 --> 00:28:24.920 Great, thank you. 00:28:28.120 --> 00:28:31.060 And I think we are already through with our questions. 00:28:31.860 --> 00:28:32.580 Okay, very good. 00:28:33.300 --> 00:28:34.540 Well, it's been a pleasure talking with you guys. 00:28:35.060 --> 00:28:38.660 Yeah, it was definitely a pleasure for us as well that you came to us on the show. 00:28:39.940 --> 00:28:40.420 this late 00:28:41.560 --> 00:28:41.640 yeah 00:28:42.700 --> 00:28:42.980 that's okay 00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:46.180 we are happy 00:28:46.490 --> 00:28:48.300 I mean that's only our second 00:28:49.340 --> 00:28:50.260 episode in English 00:28:50.860 --> 00:28:52.660 because we're usually only talking in German 00:28:52.730 --> 00:28:54.140 to our listeners 00:28:55.380 --> 00:28:56.700 we still hope that 00:28:56.860 --> 00:28:58.580 that was interesting enough for everyone 00:28:59.170 --> 00:29:00.800 that our listeners 00:29:01.080 --> 00:29:01.600 liked that show 00:29:02.310 --> 00:29:03.860 and if they want to complain about anything 00:29:04.010 --> 00:29:05.160 they can write us an email 00:29:05.670 --> 00:29:07.039 and Arne knows the email address 00:29:07.100 --> 00:29:09.640 info at bretterwisser.de 00:29:12.299 --> 00:29:12.820 bretterwisser 00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:15.420 yeah that's something 00:29:15.490 --> 00:29:17.300 like a running gag that only Arne knows 00:29:17.500 --> 00:29:18.000 our email address 00:29:19.480 --> 00:29:19.600 yes 00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:23.140 yeah thanks for your time 00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:25.440 and let's hope 00:29:25.520 --> 00:29:26.360 that we meet maybe 00:29:27.420 --> 00:29:29.280 in Essen you might 00:29:29.420 --> 00:29:31.200 be crowded by a big group 00:29:31.310 --> 00:29:33.080 of fans for the game 00:29:36.500 --> 00:29:37.020 groupies 00:29:37.040 --> 00:29:40.560 Yeah, it'll be great. Let me know when the show goes up online. 00:29:41.460 --> 00:29:42.080 We will. 00:29:43.380 --> 00:29:43.500 Okay. 00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:45.560 Okay. 00:29:46.940 --> 00:29:48.760 We wish you a good night. 00:29:51.399 --> 00:29:53.140 And yeah, thanks again for your time. 00:29:53.860 --> 00:29:54.780 Okay, take care. Bye-bye. 00:29:55.280 --> 00:29:55.460 See you. 00:29:55.500 --> 00:29:55.520 Bye.